NP Voice: Forums

Re: Attack on ANP's & Advance

hyatteve — Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:19:28 GMT

NP education and training is not on par with medical students.

If I wasn't close to 50, I would apply to med school.

The attacks on NP education and training by MDs are completely justified.

Re: Attack on ANP's & Advance

James Kelley — Wed, 22 Apr 2009 15:58:34 GMT

Hi,

I will be starting medical school in August. I am not a typical pre-med, as I am 29. I used to practice law in NYC, but have decided to follow my calling to practice medicine. I currently work in a hospital as a nurse's aide, and will do so until I can begin my studies in August. My mother is a nurse practitioner. She has two masters, one in geriatric medicine and the other in family practice. She has been an inspiration, mentor, and source of support for all of my endeavors. She subscribes to Advance, which is how I found my way to this site. I have chosen to follow the path to an MD, but I could have just as happily gone for an RN to NP or PA after knocking out the pre-reqs I recently took. Plenty of fulfillment and professional satisfaction to be had either way. This is my first post as I normally just browse.

I really cringed when I saw a post here about the student doctor network forums. That site has some great info for pre-meds about the application process, the MCAT, and many other little details where very helpful. However, it unfortunately also attracts some extremely arrogant and annoying people. I actually avoided that site for awhile, because some of the content on there is extremely distracting and disheartening, especially during the stressful admissions process. A lot of the people on there, are cranky pre-meds/med students who haven't really lived life. Buried behind physics and chemistry books, and subjected to a soul scorching admissions process, they have chosen to address their personal insecurities by sneering at others. Ignore them. Hopefully they will grow up. We are not all like that!

James

Re: Attack on ANP's & Advance

Sharon Ledbetter — Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:17:12 GMT

Amen.

If "the best and brightest" go to med school, how come there are so many dumb and dumber who graduate?? ;)

When I began practice as a RN, I had the idea that doctors were the boss of me. I still think that is the AMA's and societies view. I think the monopoly that Medical Doctors have had in health care needs to end. A degree in medicine is not or should not be the requirement for being a primary care provider.I think the education nurses have lends itself more to this role. We learn case management, educational skills, communication skills and social science as well as the pharmacology and other sciences:anatomy and physiology either basic or advanced. And what I think should be the basic of all medical skills : referral. We learn our limits and don't have the ego that keeps us thinking we know it all.a skill, I believe, many more health care providers should learn. There will always be those who know more and are more skilled. So doctors need to learn they will have a role in health care, just not the God of medicine anymore.

I know my scope of practice and it is limited by my skills and knowledge as well as legally. Someday the legal will catch up with reality. Since I live in Georgia I do't believe I will live to see it here, but it will happen. As far as society it is up to us to educate them.

Many years ago, doctors gave the injections, while the nurse stood by, many years ago, only a doctor could start an IV. Skills, we as nurses ,have mastered and excelled and doctors?? don't let any doctor get near me with an injection..Many years ago, doctors talked to their patients, learned about their lives and needs and educated them in what was available to help. Today, nurses listen, learn and educate people in ways to meet their needs. Not many doctors do this anymore. And the knowledge only doctors had is now available to nurses to advance practice and so our scope of practice evolves.I'm not sure how a MD's profession is evolving but it looks more like it is specializing. With all we know today maybe that is the way to go. And maybe when society learns the skills and knowledge we have in our area of practice, more future med students will grow up to be NPs?

Re: Attack on ANP's & Advance

Alisa — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 21:11:46 GMT

Sharon,

I totally agree with you 100%. I love being a nurse and a nurse practitioner and I don't want to be a doctor either! I feel that I have the best of both worlds right here where I am.

I would hope that medical schools are teaching new physicians to be open minded and more holistic--we all need to work together for the optimal health of our patients not against each other in a 'I'm better than you are how dare you impose on my terroritory" scenerio.

I want to be a fly on the wall when Dr I'm Somebody MD meets Nurse Rachet at 0330 am over the bedside of a crashing patient :)

Re: Attack on ANP's & Advance

Alisa — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 20:44:23 GMT

I took a moment during a lull at the office and read through some of the posts--"Taurus" portrays himself as a med student and is getting a ton of support for posts such as the one I posted below. They are all super concerned with DNP's calling themselves "Doctors" without the med school training behind it. They are very derogatory to all nurses in general and feel that the only goal for RN's is to 'go onto advanced training and take over the medical profession once and for all', and 'if it is a fight they (nurses) want then it is a fight they will get'. I wonder just what they are being taught in medical school to foster such distain and hatred for nurses and advanced practice nurses...

"If NP's had maintained their original scope and purpose, to be physician extenders, to work with physicians to deliver the best possible care, then I would be fine with that. If DNP's had followed the DO example of adopting the medical education model, then I would have been fine with that.

However, the DNP represents to me and many others nothing more than a short-cut to practice full-scope medicine. Not only is the DNP training 1/12 that of even a FP, it is a much easier path, with nursing school not nearly as difficult to enter or to pass as medical school, that DNP can be done part-time while they work, and in some programs completely all online. And yet you have to creator of the DNP, Mary Mundinger, writing in Forbes and WSJ that DNP's are equivalent to PCP's and that they should be allowed to work autonomously in all clinical settings, outpatient, inpatient, and ER. To further insult physicians, Mundinger and deans of many nursing schools have paid the NBME to create an exam for DNP's that is loosely modeled after Step 3. You will no doubt start to hear the term, "board-certified DNP" pretty soon.

If the DNP model would provide the same high quality care as physicians, then I would have no problem, but I am dubious about that claim. The best and brightest go into medicine and even after 5000 hours of clinical training during medical school I wouldn't trust them with my life. Yet, you have people with lesser credentials and abilities going to nursing school, give them much less training, and we would allow them to see patients independently? Something doesn't add up.

Furthermore, if we allow DNP's to achieve their goals, then we are putting physicians at a huge disadvantage. FP, IM, peds have to go to school longer, take on more debt, and have a higher level of scrutiny and regulation to work in the same capacity as DNP's. Why are forcing physicians to compete against DNP's with basically one hand tied behind our backs?

If the DNP's want to practice medicine, then they should practice under the oversight of state medical boards. They have the mechanisms to ensure competency and safety of the people who practice medicine.

Re: Attack on ANP's & Advance

Thomas Reardon — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 01:56:47 GMT

Very interesting reading the medical student posts. Appears that they are very territorial and cocerned about Nurses practicing medicine. Quickly reading through the posts, it appears that they have mistaken "Campus" time for "clinical" time. I am currently in an Adult Health NP program at Ga State. A prime example of the confusion is that our Health Assessment class was "online" so campus time was limited to about 16 hours of Exam time combined with clinical skills check off. I had about 50 hours of CLINICAL time, spent doing physicals for Girl Scout camps, working with a seasoned MD in her office prcactice, doing a pelvic exam on a live model, doing a testicular exam and prostate exam on a live model, and a microscopy lab.

I can understand the concern the medical students have related to little clinical time. I personally would never attend a DNP program that had such minimal requirements for clinical hours. I can honestly say that the majority of my knowledge of patient care has come from my bed side time in the past 20 years as an RN. I tend to relate things I learn in class now to the patients I have cared for over those years of nursing.

Interestingly, while I was reading the posts on the medical student board, I had an intern walk up to me and ask me what an Rh Screen was. So much for all the knowledge the medical students gain in their 3000+ hours of clinical during medical school. I think I was in 10th grade A&P class when I learned about Rh factors.

I took 18 years before deciding to go back to school for my MSN and I hope it's not another 18 before I decide about my Doctorate. I have seriously thought about getting my Education Doctorate as I find that EdD's tend to be MUCH better professors and teachers. Again, that's a generalized statement, doesn't apply to EVERY PhD in Nursing or EdD. The only problem is that a DNP would provide a great emphasis on the CLINICAL PRACTICE of nursing. I have no desire to get a PhD in nursing as the ones I have seen are mostly managerial and administrative. Trust me, I am WAY too outspoken to even attempt to get into management. Currently, I"m at a standstill about my terminal degree. Maybe by the time I finish my MSN and have a couple of years experience, the dust will settle a bit between the AMA and DNP's.

Re: Attack on ANP's & Advance

Sharon Ledbetter — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:07:50 GMT

Hi back,

I went to that web site, Are all MD students as stupid as that Tarus guy? He is a lowly medical student about to become an intern. And if he is lucky, some nurse will teach him something ABOUT BEING A DOCTOR. I still remember those poor little interns who I had to lead by the hand to get them to recognize CHF right in their face..

The hubrus of medical students or nursing students!! I'd like to hear them when they get out in the real world. I DON'T want to be a doctor. I am a nurse and a nurse practitioner. And what I have learned in the many years of being a nurse, makes me want to laugh then cry at these BIG Doctors.and tell them to get a life.

How about this: if the doctor is the captain of the health care ship does that mean he stays aboard and drowns while others escape from this sinking model of illness care?

Happy to hear what others think.

Attack on ANP's & Advance

Fannie O'Rear — Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:39:35 GMT

Hi all,

You may wish to visit the Student Doctor Network and get a portrait of what medical students are saying about this site, the ANP profession and certain discussions that are filled with hate speech. Please take a moment to voice your concern with the webmaster and consider sending the same to those who are paid advertisers with the website.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=526477

Best,

Fan